all 51 comments

[–]allhailkodos 26 points27 points ago

I would get a lawyer involved.

[–]elspic 8 points9 points ago

I agree with consulting a lawyer but before you do that (others may disagree with me), I would send one last communication from yourself stating that, if there is not a satisfactory resolution to this matter within X number of days, you will be handing the matter to your attorney to deal with and asking him to file a DMCA takedown notice with the end-client's host.

This will show that you are serious about things, as well as point out that you can immediately affect his wallet, even if it's via a client.

I would definitely consult with a lawyer before actually doing anything but, my logic is (pasted from a response further down):

"I could definitely see it turning into an entire can of worms but, at the same time, if his client had stolen work from somewhere else (reused a premium theme without paying or similar), I would think that company would be completely in the right to send a DMCA notice to the host. The client might be able to prove harm but in the course of that, it would come out that it was through his own actions. If you lease a car, you don't get to sue the bank for repoing it when you stop making payments, just because it inconvenienced you to not have stolen property."

One last piece of advice: Always say "My attorney" or "Our attorney(ies)" instead of "A lawyer" or something similar. It might seem small but, even if you don't actually have an attorney on retainer, it sounds more professional and that goes a long way.

[–]hobesmart 4 points5 points ago

this is the only answer. consult with a lawyer. let him/her tell you what your next step should be. we offer advice because we've all been there, but we're not lawyers. trying to handle this on your own is inadvisable.

[–]gerbs 2 points3 points ago

That's all there is to do now. Bring your agreement to a lawyer and tell them your situation. It sounds like this company is planning on ignoring you until you give up trying to collect. Call them, invoice them; they're just going to ignore you. They can't, however, ignore a subpoena.

[–]snowcase[S] 0 points1 point ago

Just spoke with a lawyer. He's sending a cease and desist and if we don't hear from them we'll proceed with legal action. I'm also getting a more thorough contract written.

[–]Legolas-the-elf 14 points15 points ago

It sounds like each individual response to their actions was correct, but you've let this go on for too long.

  • You mention states - are you in the USA? Send a DMCA takedown to his host. You own the copyright until you are paid in full.
  • Then send him a letter before action via registered mail saying that you will take him to small claims court if he doesn't pay his bill. This letter should state a time period within which you require a written response - two weeks is common.
  • If he hasn't paid by then, file in small claims court. You don't use legal representation for this, you show up with your supporting paperwork and state your case.

Chances are the situation will be resolved before you make it to court. He might provide a counter-offer, such as splitting the invoice down the middle. It's up to you whether you agree to this or not.

[–]freejulianassange 5 points6 points ago

This is my favorite advice here, particularly the part about small claims court. Unless we're talking about money on the order of $10,000+ then I don't think dropping hundreds an hour on a lawyer is warranted quite yet. Filing in small claims is easy, and a judge is not going to look kindly on your client assuming the circumstances you describe are accurate.

[–]hobesmart 1 point2 points ago

this is why all good contracts need a clause that states that the offending party (in this case the client) is responsible for all legal fees. i've never paid a dime in legal fees going after someone who has violated a contract.

[–]snowcase[S] 0 points1 point ago

"It sounds like each individual response to their actions was correct, but you've let this go on for too long."

It's been 24 hours since the email ending our relationship was sent. I don't think that's too long.

[–]negativeview 3 points4 points ago

It was too long between when the abusive relationship started and when it ended, though.

[–]snowcase[S] 2 points3 points ago

That may be true but I've dealt with similar clients before. I should have known better when they tried to send back an edited agreement for my signature.

[–]fourstates 1 point2 points ago

WTF. FUCK THIS GUY.

[–]matts2 -1 points0 points ago

You can't collect a small claims court judgement in another state.

[–]lolapops 0 points1 point ago

Why do you say that? You can collect a judgement that was handled in another state.

[–]matts2 -2 points-1 points ago

Small claims judgements are hard to collect and across state lines makes it very difficult.

[–]myquite 7 points8 points ago

[–]snowcase[S] 1 point2 points ago

Can you elaborate? I've seen the video before. Not sure how this helps my situation.

[–]redmondnstuff 9 points10 points ago

The point of the video is you need a lawyer.

[–]myquite 7 points8 points ago

The take away for you in this video, based on the situation that you described, is that it is time to involve a lawyer. Freelancers in particular have to be very protective over their rights. There is no corporate office with a legal team waiting to swoop in a rescue you. You don't get paid, you don't eat. As part of this protectiveness we need to discard the assumption that lawyers are somehow outside of the realm of business as usual. They are required in order to protect our time and investments. Professionals have lawyers. It's frustrating, your working hard, and would rather not resort to a lawyer. Get over it!

[–]fezir108 4 points5 points ago

I'm not 100% sure if this would apply to your situation, but perhaps a DMCA takedown request is in order?

[–]snowcase[S] 1 point2 points ago

How would I go about doing that as a subcontractor?

[–]fezir108 2 points3 points ago

If you go to the website of whichever company hosts your client's website, they should have DMCA information somewhere. Here's an example for Cloudfare.

[–]snowcase[S] 1 point2 points ago

I meant how legally. Since I did not work for the client directly. The work is currently hosted on their own sandbox as I presume they're trying to build off what I've already done. I already removed the work that I had completed but I'm sure they had been copying it regularly.

[–]fezir108 0 points1 point ago

So the work for your client is being presented to their client as their own? Do you think you'd be out of line in contacting your client's client to warn them that they don't own the rights to that work?

[–]snowcase[S] 0 points1 point ago

That was one of the options I was thinking about.

[–]Legolas-the-elf 4 points5 points ago

I would not do this without getting legal advice. Interfering in a business relationship is something you can be sued for, and I suspect it would be easy for him to prove harm if his client dropped him in response to your interference.

[–]elspic 0 points1 point ago

I could definitely see it turning into an entire can of worms but, at the same time, if his client had stolen work from somewhere else (reused a premium theme without paying or similar), I would think that company would be completely in the right to send a DMCA notice to the host.

The client might be able to prove harm but in the course of that, it would come out that it was through his own actions.

If you lease a car, you don't get to sue the bank for repoing it when you stop making payments, just because it inconvenienced you to not have stolen property.

[–]noved 1 point2 points ago

yeah do not do that option without some sort of legal counsel involved. you can get sued for interfering with an existing business relationship or at worse even libel if they feel as though you are slandering them through your contacts, even if you aren't going anywhere near something like that. It could also slow your case waaaaay down.

[–]barakplasma 7 points8 points ago

Small claims court perhaps?

[–]yummymarshmallow 2 points3 points ago

Not sure why you were downvoted. This is probably where the trial would go to.

[–]ascottmccauley 0 points1 point ago

I'm guessing downvoted because he's in a different state. Small claims court for cross-state lines cases can often result in a determination against you with prejudice.

[–]elspic 1 point2 points ago

I gave more on topic-replies to a couple of comments but, slightly off-topic: It sounds like you were pretty careful with a scope of work and contract but you might want to put something where clients will see it stating your working hours, communication response times, etc. It sounds like these people were being completely unreasonable and I've had those myself but it's always good to have things laid out for reference.

Expanding on that, unless it's an emergency, I don't respond outside of my working hours. It's inevitable that, when you send a quick email from your phone while waiting at a restaurant, the client will immediately send back 10 pages of stuff that they need done by first thing in the morning.

[–]snowcase[S] 0 points1 point ago

It's pretty clear to me

Any services requested by Customer in addition to those listed above shall be at Website Designer’s hourly rate of X per hour. Business hours are from 9am-5pm EST after which it’s Y per hour. Expenses, if any, will be charged to Customer at Website Designer’s cost. Until the complete project is paid for in full, it is the property of Website Designer, and Customer shall have no rights to its use.

[–]ascottmccauley 1 point2 points ago

Aha! the problem here is that by declaring that after 5pm there is a different hourly rate leads to the conclusion that you are available, and can be implied that you are responsible to respond. Strike that clause in your future contracts. One rate.

[–]snowcase[S] 0 points1 point ago

I don't mind working outside those hours but I will charge for it. What I don't appreciate are demands to answer outside those hours. I made it clear I'm not on call and if they wanted me to be it would cost them much more.

[–]ascottmccauley 0 points1 point ago

I understand your point, but from a legal perspective the wording does not make it clear that you aren't "on call". Perhaps you should indicate instead that for accelerated deadlines requiring work outside normal business hours will be assessed additional rush fees. (or something along those lines)

[–]StompingBrokenGlass 0 points1 point ago

You have mentioned that your contact stated there is a 50% deposit, so did you get the deposit ?

[–]snowcase[S] -2 points-1 points ago

Yes. From the first paragraph: "I get a deposit of 50% of the original agreement."

[–]StompingBrokenGlass 2 points3 points ago

Thanks for clearing that up, because it looked like part of explaining the contract.

As like the others have stated, it's better to get a lawyer and see what can be done.

[–]guluarte 0 points1 point ago

Dmca

[–]sma92176us -5 points-4 points ago

If you have access to the server, take your work down and leave a page documenting how the guy is a dock and doesn't pay his bills.

[–]alliknowis 0 points1 point ago

Don't expect to last too long if this is the way you do business.

[–]sma92176us 0 points1 point ago

Are you kidding me? The developer was only given a 50% deposit and hasn't even be paid in full.... I have owned a design/development firm business for over 12 yrs. Seems like it has worked for us so far (3x). It's easier than getting lawyers and court involved, especially when a bullshit client screws you/your company around trying to get freebies and extras not agreed to in the original contract or po.

[–]alliknowis -3 points-2 points ago

I expect you never have agreements without deadlines. Also, would you allow a small job like this to last an entire month? If it goes to court, most likely he'll get to keep the deposit unless he demands his work to get taken down, in which case he may have to return some of it. Just read it again. Neither side has followed the contract, and once you start a back and forth displaying your unhappiness, you lose. Basically, a takedown attempt could work, but it shouldn't be the solution in this case.

[–]sma92176us 1 point2 points ago

touche! Good point

[–]snowcase[S] 0 points1 point ago

Again, you clearly didn't read what I wrote. Original estimate was 5 business days. I worked 11 total. You have no way of knowing the scope or time involved but either way, I clearly stated it was for a set number of hours. How can you possibly say that I haven't followed the contract?

[–]alliknowis -3 points-2 points ago

I'm just saying... in order to avoid this in the future, set firm deadlines and expectations. Also, you should have had a lot more information before setting a timeline. It just sounds like you were fishing for a job so you gave some generic, non-specific information. You said he sent you information and design info AFTER you had already taken on the job. That shouldn't happen. Also, think about setting landmark payments instead of a 50/50 split. If you find this happening again, think about doing your freelance business through an intermediary site. Chalk it up to a learning experience.

[–]snowcase[S] 2 points3 points ago

Milestones are definitely something I'll be using in the future. I've already modified my agreement. He sent me the jpegs, which is reasonable considering he wanted to protect his work, and then when the project began he sent many more designs that he had not offered or mentioned before. I definitely was NOT fishing for work. They purposefully withheld info.